087 - Shaping Tomorrow’s Workplace by Cultivating People-First Cultures with Hannah Ubl and Lisa Walden

[00:00:00] Writing a book can be the foundation for sharing your important message, but it won't

[00:00:07] work unless you are consistently marketing.

[00:00:10] This podcast is for those who have written a book to share their message with the world.

[00:00:15] I love talking all things Authorpreneur and having guests join me to share their brilliance

[00:00:21] with you.

[00:00:25] Hello, Authorpreneurs.

[00:00:27] It's Suzanne Tregenza Moore and I am here with a delight today.

[00:00:34] This is the first time I'm interviewing two people at once, so we're going to see how it

[00:00:39] goes.

[00:00:40] Today, I'm going to be speaking with Hannah Ubel and Lisa Walden who have founded Good

[00:00:46] Company Consulting.

[00:00:48] Good Company Consulting delivers compelling, actionable keynotes which help companies foster

[00:00:56] top-notch cultures that put people first.

[00:01:00] Hannah and Lisa's content is highly customized, constantly evolving, and built to inspire

[00:01:07] meaningful change while providing accessible tools for everyone in the room or on Zoom.

[00:01:14] Welcome, Lisa and Hannah.

[00:01:15] I'm so delighted to talk to you and to hear a little bit about your business and the

[00:01:22] book that you guys recently put out.

[00:01:24] Hannah, can you just share what the book is and what made you guys write it?

[00:01:29] Sure.

[00:01:30] The book is titled The Future of Work is Human, Transforming Company Culture for

[00:01:35] a Post-Pandemic World.

[00:01:37] We wrote this book.

[00:01:39] It's essentially in the title, what we call Pandemic Years.

[00:01:44] They completely transform the way people think about work.

[00:01:48] That is something we have always been passionate about, is that work needs to change the way

[00:01:52] we communicate, lead, build workplace cultures have not always been very people first.

[00:01:58] Our mission has always been to build those people first workplaces.

[00:02:02] In the past few pandemic years, the whole conversation around that really shifted where

[00:02:07] a lot of people were saying yes, places should be more people first.

[00:02:13] We wrote this book to address how people and organizations can create that workplace

[00:02:18] culture.

[00:02:19] Then also, to be extremely honest in our business because a lot of our work comes

[00:02:23] from keynote speaking, having a book is really helpful for booking, speaking engagements.

[00:02:27] That was also part of writing the book.

[00:02:30] Absolutely.

[00:02:31] I love that you just put that right out there, honestly.

[00:02:34] Fabulous.

[00:02:35] Lisa, I'll ask you this one.

[00:02:37] A number of years ago, like pre-pandemic, the whole concept of workplace culture was really

[00:02:43] about how do we make this place somewhere people want to come?

[00:02:50] Now nobody wants to go there and we all just admit it in a lot of situations.

[00:02:57] What are companies starting to deal with that?

[00:03:01] What are you guys recommending and encouraging in order to deal with that?

[00:03:06] That is the question, isn't it?

[00:03:09] First of all, this is a topic that is extremely contentious right now.

[00:03:12] We are seeing two factions.

[00:03:15] Essentially, the faction of work from home is great.

[00:03:18] We want to stay home.

[00:03:19] We love what it's done for us.

[00:03:20] Then there's the faction of we need to be in the office.

[00:03:23] We need to see the whites of each other's eyes.

[00:03:25] We're not collaborating, connecting, and we need to get everyone, bodies back in

[00:03:30] the office.

[00:03:31] Certainly, there's pros and cons to both dynamics, both setups.

[00:03:36] The conversation around it right now is not very productive, I would say.

[00:03:41] It's a lot of finger pointing, a lot of anger, a lot of frustration, resentment, feelings.

[00:03:45] You have the work from home faction saying they're just trying to force us back into

[00:03:50] the office because managers don't want their jobs to be obsolete.

[00:03:53] They want to have their eyes on us.

[00:03:55] Then leaders are saying, well, first of all, we've spent so much money on these

[00:03:59] workspaces, so we want people to use them.

[00:04:02] Right.

[00:04:03] But more importantly, there is that.

[00:04:05] I agree with this.

[00:04:06] There is that magic of connection and water cooler ideas and off the cuff conversations

[00:04:13] and moments and bump ins that are really important to building strong relationships

[00:04:17] and therefore having strong teams and strong organizations.

[00:04:20] We certainly can see both sides of the argument for us, and it's the central

[00:04:26] component of everything we do.

[00:04:28] We're trying to find venues of conversation and empathy and compassion for whatever

[00:04:33] angle you're coming from.

[00:04:35] Rather than jump on the very negative take that is easy to adopt, can we try to

[00:04:42] understand where each person is coming from and try to take a softer approach

[00:04:48] to making our case either way?

[00:04:51] For example, leaders right now are saying, we need people back into the

[00:04:55] office.

[00:04:56] How do we force them to show up?

[00:04:57] Right.

[00:04:58] Even the question is not coming at it from the right angle.

[00:05:01] We're forcing people to show up.

[00:05:04] Hopefully you can do that as an organization, but it's going to have

[00:05:06] such a disastrous ripple effect in your culture that it's not worth the effort.

[00:05:11] So rather than thinking about sticks and directives for forcing people

[00:05:16] to show up in the office again, how do you encourage and incentivize them?

[00:05:21] So what are some carrots you can offer to get people to show up rather

[00:05:24] than tell them you must be here because this is what we need?

[00:05:28] Say we encourage you to come here and here's what's going to draw you,

[00:05:34] whether it's a nice working environment, whether it's the way that you

[00:05:39] conduct your office days versus when people are home.

[00:05:42] One of the complaints we get is you go to the office and you're just

[00:05:44] sitting on Zoom calls eight days.

[00:05:45] So why am I even here?

[00:05:46] Why am I showing up?

[00:05:47] Right, yes.

[00:05:48] But really taking a different approach of understanding curiosity,

[00:05:52] suspending judgment and trying to find the point of agreement and again

[00:05:57] those carrots, those incentives versus then just telling people what to

[00:06:01] do.

[00:06:02] So I think it's going to be a heated debate right now and one that we take

[00:06:05] a pretty firm stance on and that we think that work life, hybrid work

[00:06:10] setups encourage work life balance, what we call work life harmony.

[00:06:13] And we're very pro that approach but trying to find that middle ground

[00:06:18] right now in a very contentious conversation.

[00:06:20] Yeah, I would think that the larger a company is, the more they're

[00:06:23] struggling too because it's one thing if you've got like a 10-person

[00:06:27] company, right?

[00:06:28] You can actually have a conversation with everyone and receive feedback

[00:06:34] from everyone whereas in a larger organization, you know, like you

[00:06:40] can't hire an entire organization of HR people to have the chit chats

[00:06:44] with everyone related to what would work for you, what is your ideal,

[00:06:51] etc., etc.

[00:06:53] Hannah, what are your thoughts on that?

[00:06:54] Are you seeing that the larger the organization, the more

[00:06:57] issues there are?

[00:06:58] You know, it's interesting.

[00:07:00] We primarily work with larger organizations than smaller ones so I

[00:07:04] can't say like these are the absolute things that we're seeing.

[00:07:08] I will say to your point, Lisa and I have both worked for smaller

[00:07:10] organizations.

[00:07:12] Those can be inherently way more collaborative if you have the

[00:07:15] right person in leadership.

[00:07:17] And so it can be like, oh no, we can make a collective decision

[00:07:20] together about what this will look like in a hybrid work

[00:07:23] world and how we want people to come into the office or when

[00:07:25] we want people to work remotely.

[00:07:27] And I think something though that's shared between the smaller

[00:07:30] and the larger organizations is if the person who is in that

[00:07:34] senior level leadership position or executive level

[00:07:37] leadership position is not on board, nothing's going to happen.

[00:07:40] And this is where you see headlines of really big companies

[00:07:44] with CEOs who are demanding people come into the office

[00:07:48] and then a bunch of people quit or the people who don't

[00:07:51] want to go into the office, they get laid off.

[00:07:54] And so you can see just how powerful people, like how much

[00:07:58] power people have when they're in that position.

[00:08:00] And so I think that is the biggest challenge where you can

[00:08:03] have a whole sea of middle managers who might be saying

[00:08:06] things like, yes, I'm on board.

[00:08:08] I want to make this work for my team.

[00:08:09] So going quote unquote down the ladder, it's a lot easier

[00:08:13] for them to try to create this really great work

[00:08:15] environment.

[00:08:16] But as they're going up the ladder, if that voice is

[00:08:18] saying no, everyone needs to come into the office,

[00:08:21] they get really stuck and then a lot of people

[00:08:23] are unhappy.

[00:08:24] So if that senior level leader is not on board,

[00:08:27] no matter what size organization you're in,

[00:08:29] it's going to be really hard to create

[00:08:31] a productive, happy working environment

[00:08:33] in the hybrid kind of model and really in every other kind

[00:08:36] of way too, honestly.

[00:08:37] Yeah.

[00:08:38] How much are you seeing the fact

[00:08:40] that these companies have enormous resources

[00:08:46] to have space, to have their employees interface

[00:08:51] in person, the fact that they're like, listen, we did this.

[00:08:54] We want you here five days a week.

[00:08:56] Screw this three days a week thing.

[00:08:59] Or everybody's on their own schedule.

[00:09:02] How much do you see that influencing things?

[00:09:05] And I'll have Lisa answer that one.

[00:09:07] Yeah.

[00:09:07] For us it's very much a fallacy of some costs kind

[00:09:10] of situation where they are holding onto this amount

[00:09:14] that they have invested in buildings

[00:09:16] at the detriment of retention of their staff.

[00:09:20] So times have changed dramatically.

[00:09:24] We were put through a few years that turned everything

[00:09:27] that we knew about work, the world, how we show up,

[00:09:29] completely upside down.

[00:09:30] So we need to adjust for the times and not cling

[00:09:33] to what once was.

[00:09:35] Context is critical.

[00:09:36] That's another thing that we are preaching all the time is,

[00:09:38] how does context influence how you move?

[00:09:42] It's super easy to be default in so many ways.

[00:09:45] Default management, default communication, default

[00:09:49] leadership, default everything.

[00:09:52] You can't default.

[00:09:53] You have to be intentional about how you show up,

[00:09:55] how you communicate, how you lead, how you manage others.

[00:09:58] And the way you do that is by gaining context

[00:10:01] about the environment around you.

[00:10:03] You add someone who to the team,

[00:10:04] you've added a new bit of context.

[00:10:05] You need to take a little bit more work

[00:10:07] to learn who they are so you can adjust accordingly.

[00:10:10] And at large, organizations need

[00:10:12] to adjust for the context of our current times.

[00:10:15] The understanding, the feeling, the flexibility

[00:10:18] that remote work gave to people's lives.

[00:10:21] They can't erase those memories from their employee's minds.

[00:10:25] They exist, they're there.

[00:10:26] Absolutely.

[00:10:27] So it's like the toothpaste can't be put back in the tube.

[00:10:30] It's out at this point.

[00:10:31] So are we gonna try and scrape it all back in

[00:10:34] or are we gonna take what we have

[00:10:35] and make something out of it?

[00:10:37] It's a different scenario.

[00:10:38] It's a different context.

[00:10:39] And either we force our way back

[00:10:42] into the way things used to be

[00:10:44] or we adapt to the times.

[00:10:45] And certainly a lot of organizations

[00:10:47] are forcing people to go back to the office,

[00:10:50] forcing their way back.

[00:10:51] And I think for me,

[00:10:53] I think a lot about the short-term benefit

[00:10:55] versus the long-term.

[00:10:56] I think maybe in the short term

[00:10:57] they'll reap some quote unquote rewards out of that,

[00:11:00] but it's not long-term thinking.

[00:11:02] And as more millennials get into positions of leadership

[00:11:05] as more Gen Z enter the workplace,

[00:11:07] the ones who refuse to flex to the trend of the time

[00:11:11] are the ones who are gonna suffer for it.

[00:11:13] Yeah, I can totally see that.

[00:11:15] I have this recurring conversation

[00:11:17] with a dear friend of mine who's a friend from college.

[00:11:20] So we've known each other a few years.

[00:11:21] And I talk about the fact that

[00:11:24] it just seems like everyone in the world

[00:11:25] is a little bit pissed off right now.

[00:11:27] And I think part of that is a dissatisfaction

[00:11:30] of when the world shut down

[00:11:33] and we began this COVID journey,

[00:11:36] everyone had this feeling

[00:11:38] or many had this feeling of

[00:11:40] I just want things to go back to normal.

[00:11:42] I just want things to go back to normal.

[00:11:44] But in truth, we are always changing.

[00:11:47] We are always evolving.

[00:11:48] And so there is no actual way to go back

[00:11:52] because everything has changed too much

[00:11:56] for every single individual

[00:11:58] because of what they experienced during that time.

[00:12:01] And for some people it was my life is a haven.

[00:12:04] I never have to leave my house.

[00:12:06] And for others it was like

[00:12:08] this is the worst thing that's ever happened.

[00:12:10] I can't wait to be with people, right?

[00:12:12] And it doesn't really matter which one you are

[00:12:16] but you are affected by other people's feelings about it,

[00:12:20] I guess.

[00:12:21] Would you say that you see that, Hannah?

[00:12:24] Absolutely.

[00:12:25] Well, and I think too,

[00:12:26] it's like feelings are impacting all of this.

[00:12:29] Like just the fact everyone is so in their feelings

[00:12:32] about everything right now.

[00:12:33] I mean, I think so many people have a short fuse.

[00:12:36] They're exhausted.

[00:12:37] Like, and also too, I think about,

[00:12:39] so Lisa and I don't have kids,

[00:12:40] but we even think about, you know,

[00:12:41] people who have kids and we talk to parents,

[00:12:43] they're like, not only was I changing my routine

[00:12:45] in every single other thing about my life.

[00:12:48] Yes.

[00:12:49] So too was I taking care of children

[00:12:51] and like managing their new routines.

[00:12:53] And then also, you know, if you had like a toddler

[00:12:56] who was learning how to interact with the world,

[00:12:58] it's like, well, they learned that at home

[00:13:00] with our family.

[00:13:01] And now they're going out into the world

[00:13:02] into school again.

[00:13:03] It's like layers just so many layers.

[00:13:05] That's all the layers, all the layers.

[00:13:08] Yeah.

[00:13:09] All the layers.

[00:13:10] I think that's one of the things that we're going to need

[00:13:13] to do is to think about how we can

[00:13:15] adapt to what's hard about it.

[00:13:17] Is that, you know, if we think about at work,

[00:13:19] what's happening is that when we're in these,

[00:13:21] when we're in any kind of heightened emotional state,

[00:13:23] it's really hard to pause and be aware

[00:13:26] of how those emotions are affecting our decisions,

[00:13:28] our reactions.

[00:13:29] Like Lisa and I always talk about the difference

[00:13:31] between reacting and responding.

[00:13:33] And I think where we see a lot of the contention

[00:13:35] right now is it feels like a lot of the decisions

[00:13:38] that we're going to make,

[00:13:40] whatever it is,

[00:13:41] that feels like a reaction and not a response.

[00:13:43] It feels so emotionally driven.

[00:13:46] And then it drives this sense of fear,

[00:13:49] I feel like for a lot of leaders,

[00:13:50] because a lot of leaders are in a state of like,

[00:13:52] I don't know what to do.

[00:13:53] This is really hard.

[00:13:54] It is lonelier up at the top.

[00:13:56] And so they're like, well, you know what?

[00:13:57] This did work before five years ago,

[00:13:59] whatever was in the office.

[00:14:00] So boom, that's what we're going to do.

[00:14:02] And it's like, that's kind of an emotional reaction.

[00:14:04] And then people are having emotions

[00:14:06] based on that reaction,

[00:14:07] emotions from the leaders.

[00:14:08] It's just kind of like this,

[00:14:10] this sort of whirlwind of different feelings flying around.

[00:14:14] And then on top of that, you have life

[00:14:15] and whatever is happening in your life,

[00:14:17] which always impacts work too.

[00:14:19] Of course, right.

[00:14:20] Yeah, yeah.

[00:14:21] It's very interesting.

[00:14:22] Yeah. So tell me a little bit about your book came out.

[00:14:26] I want to say what it was the end.

[00:14:28] Was it the end of the year?

[00:14:30] End of 2023 or September 2023?

[00:14:32] Was it that long ago?

[00:14:34] Okay.

[00:14:34] So how has it impacted your business, your speaking,

[00:14:39] how you're using it, et cetera?

[00:14:41] Lisa, do you want to take that one?

[00:14:43] Yeah. I mean, so the thing about our jobs,

[00:14:47] what we do primarily on a day-to-day basis

[00:14:50] is deliver content, deliver presentations around our tagline,

[00:14:54] helping people create a workplace that doesn't suck.

[00:14:56] So all of our,

[00:14:58] everything that we're doing is centered around that mission.

[00:15:01] And the deliverable that we most often give to our clients

[00:15:06] is in a form of a presentation.

[00:15:08] So a keynote speech in front of an audience

[00:15:11] or association or organization,

[00:15:13] that primarily is the way that we share our research

[00:15:16] and share our work.

[00:15:17] And also the means by which we conduct our research.

[00:15:20] So every time we do a presentation,

[00:15:22] we're interviewing people to prep for it.

[00:15:24] We're interviewing leaders, individual contributors,

[00:15:27] getting a real finger on the pulse

[00:15:29] of what's going on within that organization

[00:15:30] so we can tailor our content.

[00:15:32] So all of that is to say,

[00:15:34] our book served so many different functions for us

[00:15:37] in the sense that it was both a way to collect the learnings

[00:15:41] and the research and the work that we've done

[00:15:43] over the last handful of years at GCC

[00:15:47] and also to serve as a further point

[00:15:50] of legitimization, for lack of a better word,

[00:15:54] in the general audience of booking, right?

[00:15:57] Of booking speeches, booking speakers,

[00:15:58] which is our main work.

[00:15:59] So if you're a speaker that doesn't have

[00:16:02] kind of an up-to-date book,

[00:16:04] that can cause some questions of, well, how relevant are you?

[00:16:07] How much work are you doing?

[00:16:09] Are you really up to date on the current trends

[00:16:11] related to your topic?

[00:16:13] It's really important to stay current

[00:16:15] with your publications.

[00:16:16] So we are obviously quite current for you, September.

[00:16:20] Might seem like a long time ago for us.

[00:16:22] It's like yesterday.

[00:16:23] And we've seen people write on their books

[00:16:27] for a long time if they can stand the test of time

[00:16:29] in some ways.

[00:16:30] So this was a really big deal for us

[00:16:32] to just legitimize us in that space.

[00:16:34] It's actually our second book we were just do

[00:16:37] for another one.

[00:16:39] And for you?

[00:16:40] Yeah, no, it was really hard to write.

[00:16:44] So we're glad to have it behind us for now.

[00:16:46] We know that another one will be coming down the pike

[00:16:48] in the future, but it's been a great magnet

[00:16:51] for clients.

[00:16:51] They see the topic and they want a presentation

[00:16:54] built around the title of the book.

[00:16:56] So we're selling a lot of the future

[00:16:58] in the book.

[00:16:59] We're also selling a lot of the work

[00:17:00] as human speeches are present.

[00:17:02] And also, once people have it, they're

[00:17:05] able to look in and see what else we,

[00:17:08] or the finer details of what we speak on.

[00:17:09] So perfectionism, communication,

[00:17:12] compassionate leadership, building

[00:17:13] a great virtual work environment,

[00:17:15] all of those things and can tap into us even further.

[00:17:18] They have that really full picture

[00:17:20] of what we speak on in the work that we do.

[00:17:22] So it's so many different ways a book works

[00:17:24] for you so hard in this world.

[00:17:26] That's great.

[00:17:27] So who's the target audience to read the book?

[00:17:30] Is it the C-suite?

[00:17:31] Is it the HR people?

[00:17:33] Who do you really want to get it in the hands of?

[00:17:36] Everyone.

[00:17:36] It's everyone you're saying.

[00:17:38] It's honestly, it was written for no matter

[00:17:41] who you are, if you are a person

[00:17:43] who is in the working world, this is a book for you.

[00:17:46] And it's primarily, I mean, I think

[00:17:49] this is in our introduction, like it's probably

[00:17:50] most relatable to people who are working

[00:17:53] in a office environment, like quote unquote

[00:17:56] white collar kind of work environment.

[00:17:58] But that's not even all of who we work with.

[00:18:00] Like we work with people across industries

[00:18:02] and organizations.

[00:18:03] So it's really if you are a person at work,

[00:18:05] this is for you.

[00:18:06] And we made it a point too when we were in there,

[00:18:09] writing the action items, it's designed

[00:18:11] where if you are a leader, you can kind of scroll

[00:18:13] through and be like, oh, here's a tip for leaders.

[00:18:15] Like this is specifically for me.

[00:18:17] And then if you are an individual contributor,

[00:18:19] like there's specific tips for you too.

[00:18:21] So what's tended to happen and it happened

[00:18:22] with your first book too is that someone will pick it up,

[00:18:25] they'll read it.

[00:18:26] And they're like, what if I just put this on my leaders desk

[00:18:29] and just kind of give them a big gift?

[00:18:31] Yeah.

[00:18:32] Like what if this accidentally lands in the inbox of my boss?

[00:18:36] Right.

[00:18:36] What would happen?

[00:18:37] I don't know.

[00:18:38] I can't imagine what might happen.

[00:18:40] Yeah.

[00:18:40] Right.

[00:18:41] Right.

[00:18:41] But it really is, it's written for everyone.

[00:18:43] Awesome.

[00:18:44] Awesome.

[00:18:44] All right.

[00:18:45] Well, so there are a few questions

[00:18:46] that I ask everyone who comes on the podcast.

[00:18:48] And the first you've already answered, Lisa,

[00:18:50] which is do you think you'll write another book?

[00:18:53] And clearly, you guys, this is not your first rodeo.

[00:18:57] And you think you'll write another one.

[00:18:58] Yeah.

[00:18:59] Yeah.

[00:19:00] OK.

[00:19:00] All right.

[00:19:01] So the second is what do you think,

[00:19:04] I mean, you guys are entrepreneurs.

[00:19:06] You started your own company, right?

[00:19:08] What do you think an entrepreneur needs to do or have

[00:19:12] in order to be successful?

[00:19:14] And I'll ask Lisa first and then Hannah.

[00:19:16] In order to be successful, I think that question

[00:19:20] is tricky to me because I think success is partially luck.

[00:19:24] That whole saying of success is the convergence

[00:19:27] of preparation and timing and luck

[00:19:29] or however it goes, something along those lines.

[00:19:31] So I believe that.

[00:19:33] And I also believe success can be defined

[00:19:35] in a whole host of ways.

[00:19:36] So success doesn't necessarily mean you have

[00:19:40] however many figures in the bank and living on a yacht,

[00:19:43] success can mean having the liberty and freedom

[00:19:47] to define your own schedule, which for me

[00:19:49] is the highest version of success, autonomy and freedom

[00:19:52] to kind of design my own schedule.

[00:19:53] So anyway, it's not as simple a question in my murky mind

[00:19:58] as it might seem.

[00:19:59] But I would say at very least in order

[00:20:01] to be able to navigate, we'll say,

[00:20:05] being an entrepreneur with some if not ease then not chaos

[00:20:11] is to embrace change, to embrace and be able

[00:20:15] to navigate change and to like roll with the punches

[00:20:20] and not beat yourself up about things that go wrong

[00:20:23] because so often it has absolutely nothing to do with you.

[00:20:26] So truly to just to be able to depersonalize

[00:20:29] a lot of what happens

[00:20:31] because there's gonna be ups and downs

[00:20:32] in the life of an entrepreneur is chaotic

[00:20:35] and you have to be able to get on the roller coaster

[00:20:37] and know that the dips are not necessarily yours.

[00:20:40] Certainly you have some part in the success

[00:20:44] in the direction, but for example, here's a great example.

[00:20:47] 2019, Hannah and I had set up a great year

[00:20:51] in 2020 of speaking.

[00:20:52] We had a lot of speeches booked.

[00:20:54] We were very optimistic about what the future held

[00:20:56] and March we got the phone call that everything was canceled.

[00:21:00] So you really have to just roll with it, go with the flow

[00:21:05] and also another piece I would add is Hannah

[00:21:08] and I always talk about how so many entrepreneurs

[00:21:10] talk about their businesses like it's their baby.

[00:21:12] Like this is my baby, this is my life,

[00:21:14] I pour my heart and soul into this

[00:21:16] and Hannah and I are very careful about never using those words

[00:21:19] in reference to our business.

[00:21:21] People are like, oh, must be so amazing to do this job

[00:21:23] that you're so passionate about that's your life's mission

[00:21:27] and we're like, we are very passionate about our job

[00:21:29] we love what we do but it is not our baby.

[00:21:31] It is not our child.

[00:21:33] We would not take a bullet for this job.

[00:21:34] Absolutely not.

[00:21:36] So like with it would go down

[00:21:38] because it is not our family, it's not our friends

[00:21:41] it is our job, it is our workplace

[00:21:44] and our workplace and our work does not define our identity

[00:21:48] and our self-worth as individuals.

[00:21:50] So because we're able to think of our work like work

[00:21:53] not like our baby, we're able to create

[00:21:55] very distinct boundaries around how we work

[00:21:59] and how we show up.

[00:22:00] And I think having that disconnect

[00:22:03] that healthy disconnect is critical to surviving

[00:22:06] as an entrepreneur because when things go wrong

[00:22:09] Hannah and I, we don't blame ourselves.

[00:22:11] We understand the role that we've taken

[00:22:12] we take accountability but it is never an indictment

[00:22:15] on who we are as individuals.

[00:22:16] So definitely just that ability to navigate change

[00:22:19] and the disconnect from the work that you're doing

[00:22:23] and who you are as an individual.

[00:22:25] I love that.

[00:22:26] I think that's powerful.

[00:22:27] Thank you.

[00:22:28] What about you Hannah?

[00:22:30] I mean, I was not in agreement with every single thing

[00:22:32] that Lisa said.

[00:22:34] So this is kind of challenging.

[00:22:36] The one thing I will say that's coming to mind

[00:22:40] is the importance of community.

[00:22:43] And I think that that can take on many different forms

[00:22:46] as an entrepreneur.

[00:22:47] You know, you can surround yourself with other entrepreneurs

[00:22:50] who are on the same journey.

[00:22:52] That's helpful to be really honest though

[00:22:54] something that has been more helpful

[00:22:56] when I think of community for myself.

[00:22:58] So, you know, this is me Hannah answering

[00:23:00] not necessarily what everyone will relate to.

[00:23:02] It's having this, you know, circle of humans

[00:23:05] that I can go to when things are really tough

[00:23:08] because being an entrepreneur is extremely hard.

[00:23:11] Like it is very unstable.

[00:23:13] There's moments of questioning.

[00:23:15] There's moments of being like cool,

[00:23:16] I got paid in one month

[00:23:17] then we went three months with very little of anything.

[00:23:19] So like that's scary.

[00:23:20] How do we make that happen and work?

[00:23:22] And just being able to have people I can go to

[00:23:25] in that time to say like this is hard.

[00:23:27] Well, you listened to me talk about how hard this is.

[00:23:30] And that's extremely effective and helpful.

[00:23:32] And I think that Lisa and I are in a very fortunate situation

[00:23:36] of our relationship as co-owners, co-founders, co-authors

[00:23:41] and everything where we have a very trusted relationship

[00:23:44] between the two of us.

[00:23:45] And we even have in our list of things

[00:23:48] that it's like we're friends first and colleagues second.

[00:23:51] So like if anything is ever sacrificing our friendship

[00:23:53] then it's time to stop the business.

[00:23:55] So I think that we are lucky

[00:23:57] and I am lucky that we have community

[00:23:58] within our company itself.

[00:24:00] But yeah, I think building that circle of people

[00:24:02] even vendors like Lisa and I are so

[00:24:05] we love our vendors that we find so much

[00:24:08] where it's like, oh, this is a community of people

[00:24:10] who we are working on things together with.

[00:24:12] So I think just- Absolutely.

[00:24:14] Yeah, yeah.

[00:24:15] It's so true.

[00:24:16] Yeah, it's just all that's just so helpful

[00:24:19] because it can feel lonely so quickly

[00:24:21] and as we know loneliness is usually not

[00:24:24] a path towards happiness and success.

[00:24:27] That looks like so however you- Totally.

[00:24:29] Build community, I think it's really helpful.

[00:24:31] Yeah, yeah.

[00:24:32] No, I love that.

[00:24:34] I love everything you guys just said about it.

[00:24:36] And I have to say in the years,

[00:24:39] I've been an entrepreneur for more than 12 years

[00:24:42] and in that time, the times where I felt

[00:24:45] like I had to do everything myself

[00:24:47] or I was working completely independently

[00:24:50] were so much harder than now

[00:24:53] where I actually have kind of several teams

[00:24:55] that I'm part of for different projects

[00:24:58] or different things.

[00:24:59] There's a beautiful thing that happens

[00:25:01] when you're connected with other people

[00:25:02] and you're all working towards something together

[00:25:05] and it can be a wonderful positive

[00:25:08] and especially if it is created

[00:25:11] in a thoughtful and conscious way, right?

[00:25:15] Yeah, yeah.

[00:25:16] Okay, last question I ask everyone who comes on

[00:25:19] and I'm gonna go to Lisa first.

[00:25:21] Hopefully she's not gonna steal yours, Hannah.

[00:25:23] What is your favorite book?

[00:25:25] Oh gosh, what an impossible question.

[00:25:28] Well, okay, I'm just gonna jump to the obvious

[00:25:30] because I literally have two tattoos of it.

[00:25:33] So Lord of the Rings would have to be my favorite book.

[00:25:37] Okay.

[00:25:38] I'm a big fantasy nerd.

[00:25:39] I love all things to do related with fantasy

[00:25:43] but I feel like I need to pick from genres

[00:25:46] but that would be my quickest, easiest,

[00:25:48] favorite book of all time.

[00:25:50] Yeah, this still stands the test of time.

[00:25:52] Yeah, it's gonna be Lord of the Rings for me.

[00:25:54] Okay, you're not my first guest to say that, I will tell you.

[00:25:57] I'm not surprised.

[00:25:59] Yeah, yeah.

[00:26:00] And what about you, Hannah?

[00:26:02] Okay, this is also a very difficult question.

[00:26:04] I'm going to answer with one of the most influential books

[00:26:06] for me was and I read it when I was in sixth grade.

[00:26:10] So however old you are in sixth grade

[00:26:12] but it was Alana, The First Adventure by Tamara Pierce

[00:26:16] and it is feeling like not a super well-known book.

[00:26:20] It's young adult and it's about a girl

[00:26:23] who disguises herself as her twin brother to become a knight

[00:26:26] and there's magic and fighting with swords.

[00:26:29] Anyway, it was basically just like,

[00:26:31] oh, this is like who I want to be as a human

[00:26:33] and it's been the coolest point of Baxter Connection,

[00:26:36] fostering connection with people

[00:26:38] if they've read and know that book

[00:26:39] and Lisa and I actually bonded over it

[00:26:41] when we met in college, which is hilarious

[00:26:43] because I was like no one else knows this book.

[00:26:45] So I think that that's in my list of tops for sure.

[00:26:49] Excellent.

[00:26:50] I have never heard of that book

[00:26:51] but I will check it out.

[00:26:53] Yeah, I will check it out.

[00:26:54] Well ladies, thank you so very much for coming on here

[00:26:59] and sharing your thoughts about

[00:27:01] what the working world looks like after a pandemic

[00:27:05] and all the things that go with it.

[00:27:07] And I'm so excited to highlight your book

[00:27:09] which is The Future of Work is Human.

[00:27:12] Sorry, I didn't get the full subtitle down

[00:27:15] as you were saying it earlier.

[00:27:17] Can you say the whole book title?

[00:27:19] I'll go to Hannah.

[00:27:20] The Future of Work is Human Transforming Company Culture

[00:27:23] for a Post-Pandemic World.

[00:27:25] Excellent, there you go.

[00:27:27] Ladies, thank you so much

[00:27:29] and to all of you who are listening,

[00:27:32] I hope you enjoyed this episode, got a lot out of it

[00:27:35] and I look forward to bringing you another one soon.

[00:27:38] Thank you for listening to All Things Authorpreneur.

[00:27:41] Head to allthingsauthorpreneur.com

[00:27:44] and get your free guide, Seven Success Principles

[00:27:48] to shift from author to thought leader.